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#901
some_dude_on_the_interwebs

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@some_dude: That still hasn't changed to be honest. Floor has joined the club but that's it. Metal is still by and large a men's world. I do think Simone was more popular at the time than Floor since Epica was more popular than ReVamp.


Sure, but then again Epica had been "the band with the guy from After Forever" for a few years.

@some_dude: That still hasn't changed to be honest.


Eh... Ailyn, White-Gluz, Wessels, Elize Ryd, Marcela Bovio...

I'd say there a few more well-known singers in the genre than there were at the time (and a few that have faded into obscurity: the lady from Sinergy) :)

But you get my point :)

Like I said previously, Nightwish songs can be sung well by any sufficiently skilled singer in my oppinion. Which is a testimony to their music, not a slight against the singers.

 
 
Absolutely. 
 
A song is only as good as it can be made to sound with a guitar and two drunk singers.
 
And any Blind Guardian performance is only as bad as Hansi's shape on a given night :)
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#902
Serious Sam

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@some_dude: That still hasn't changed to be honest. Floor has joined the club but that's it. Metal is still by and large a men's world. I do think Simone was more popular at the time than Floor since Epica was more popular than ReVamp.


Sure, but then again Epica had been "the band with the guy from After Forever" for a few years.

@some_dude: That still hasn't changed to be honest.


Eh... Ailyn, White-Gluz, Wessels, Elize Ryd, Marcela Bovio...

I'd say there a few more well-known singers in the genre than there were at the time (and a few that have faded into obscurity: the lady from Sinergy) :)

But you get my point :)

Like I said previously, Nightwish songs can be sung well by any sufficiently skilled singer in my oppinion. Which is a testimony to their music, not a slight against the singers.

 
 
Absolutely. 
 
A song is only as good as it can be made to sound with a guitar and two drunk singers.
 
And any Blind Guardian performance is only as bad as Hansi's shape on a given night :)

 

 

Yeah, I guess.

 

Yes, you're right. I was more referring to genre-transcending fame. Like, Nightwish fans still know who Bruce Dickinson is for the most part, even if they don't care about Iron Maiden. That kind of fame to me only three in symphonic metal have, Sharon, Tarja and Floor. 

 

Fair enough, but a Hansi in bad shape is still better than 90% of all metal singers. This really needs to be pointed out. He can sound awkward when he's of though, I'd have to admit that. He is still the one, the only, the magnificent, the incredible...well you know the rest :P

 

It's interesting though, in general I think what you said about songs being good is true, but there are exceptions. I just came back from a choir concert and they were amazing (music students), but those are not songs which could be sung by "just" good singers. They are rythmically and musically too complex for that. Some music does require a large amount of skill, both technically and musically. That's not a judgment of the music, some of the songs I love most are not complex songs ("Eraser" from Hypocrisy is super-easy to play on guitar, at least the riffs) at all. It's just that with some music the formula doesn't quite work.


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#903
Himiko

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I think you may overestimate the extent of Floor's fame at the time she joined Nightwish.


I might very well be wrong, but I think at the time Floor joined Nightwish you could literally count on one hand the number of european female vocalists more established than her in the metal genre: Doro, Angela Gossow, Tarja, Sharon.

That's probably pretty much it - IIRC Epica was not even headlining yet.

 

 

I'd argue Cristina Scabbia, and probably Liv Kristine too, given her background in Theatre of Tragedy. Depending on if you would class Evanescence as metal or rock, Amy Lee would certainly qualify even if I'm not a fan of her voice myself. As noted, Epica was more successful than ReVamp, so you could certainly argue that Simone was more well known at the time Floor joined Nightwish.

 

Just to use my anecdotal experience- most people I know who listen to metal know who Tarja is, or Angela Gossow, or Amy Lee - if they don't know the actual names, then they knew of the bands. When Floor was announced as the stand in singer for Nightwish, those of my friends who were really into female fronted metal, or symphonic metal generally or power metal had mostly heard of Floor, either through After Forever or her work with Ayreon (though not all of them recognised the name straight away). The ones who weren't into that specific subgenre had no idea who she was, or who After Forever were. Some knew Ayreon.

 

I think it depends how you judge it really - "THE Floor Jansen" as in, a lot of Nightwish fans already knew of Floor and liked her work? Absolutely. "THE Floor Jansen" as in, Floor was a metal superstar that nearly everyone into the genre was aware of? Not really at the time.

 

But this is all a bit academic, she's certainly got a lot more recognition nowadays, deservedly so.

 

 

 I mean there is no one outside of metal who sings like Hansi K├╝rsch (and no one inside metal either because he is the one, the only, the magnificent, the incredible...well this is all besides the point :P )

 

HAIL TO THE MIGHTY HANSI!!!!  I mean... yes.


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#904
Symphoniker

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A big Off-topic, but to answer above: Yes, there is one who sings exactly like him and his name is Jens Carlsson from Savage Circus.  Listen to them!! They're vocal clones!


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#905
Razorclaw

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Look when Anette joined that was just when Within Temptation, Epica, LC and Arch Enemy were really taking off you can add Eva to the mix as well.

 

ToT was always in the back around for the most part when placed next to those bands and to be honest until i heard Cradle of Filths Nymphetamine I had no idea who  Liv Kristine. To be honest I think CoF brought her more to the front.

 

So when Anette left was kicked whatever and Floor joined in 2012 WT, Epica, LC, and AE were already big names with big headline tours and so on. Eva was for the most part at that point was not doing much of anything.

 

So if we want to go over it Nightwish with Anette and with Floor heck even with Tarja a long with With Temptation, Epica, Arch Enemy, and Lacuna Coil are all the tier one bands the big ones when it comes to women in metal and hardrock.

 

Halestorm, Delain,Leaves Eyes to a point, Xandria, etc would be seen as tier two bands.

 

Any bands below them are tier three and have a long way to go to get to tier two and even longer to get to the top tier that would be any new and up and coming band so bands such as Butcher Babies, In The Moment, etc they might be able to pull off a tour here and there but they would be hard pressed to sell out places and even sell out places over seas. 

 

So to a point Anette like her or don't like here helped Nightwish to be that tier one band. Then Nightwish helped put Floor into the tier one place with women in metal and hardrock bands.


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#906
Ahasverus

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After Forever was undoubtedly nearing Tier 1 in 2007, Floor was already respected and being touted as "the girl who outsings Tarja" constantly back then. Of course, their peak was cut shot very early, which was a shame. 


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#907
planet_terror

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So if we want to go over it Nightwish with Anette and with Floor heck even with Tarja a long with With Temptation, Epica, Arch Enemy, and Lacuna Coil are all the tier one bands the big ones when it comes to women in metal and hardrock.

 

So you have current Tier 1 bands and legendary bands like The Gathering which is the mother of them all.


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#908
some_dude_on_the_interwebs

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As noted, Epica was more successful than ReVamp, so you could certainly argue that Simone was more well known at the time Floor joined Nightwish.


By that line of reasoning, since Jugulator sold better than either of Halford's solo albums, you could say that Ripper was more of a metal legend than Halford himself in 1997.

Except that you would probably be wrong :)
 

"THE Floor Jansen" as in, Floor was a metal superstar that nearly everyone into the genre was aware of? Not really at the time.


"The Floor Jansen" as in "the chick from After Forever which is that one semi-goth-metal-band-with-female-vocalist that is somehow relevant and is not NW, ToT or WT and is not the pet project of former AF guitarist" :P

I guess it's a regional thing as well though - IIRC AF did never chart well in the UK.
 

But this is all a bit academic, she's certainly got a lot more recognition nowadays, deservedly so.


I take the matter very seriously because it somehow entails the dangerous implication that there are people alive who are more familiar with metal from the late 2000s than metal from the mid-late 90s. 

And I refuse to acknowledge the existence of 20-somethings born after the breakup of Yugoslavia. Get off my lawn and all that :P

 

So if we want to go over it Nightwish with Anette and with Floor heck even with Tarja a long with With Temptation, Epica, Arch Enemy, and Lacuna Coil are all the tier one bands the big ones when it comes to women in metal and hardrock.

 
So you have current Tier 1 bands and legendary bands like The Gathering which is the mother of them all.


Eh, The Gathering have always been in a league of their own to me.
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#909
Razorclaw

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So if we want to go over it Nightwish with Anette and with Floor heck even with Tarja a long with With Temptation, Epica, Arch Enemy, and Lacuna Coil are all the tier one bands the big ones when it comes to women in metal and hardrock.

 

So you have current Tier 1 bands and legendary bands like The Gathering which is the mother of them all.

 

The mother of what? If you want to call any one or any band legendary and the mother of  them all that would be Pat Benatar, Lita Ford, and Heart. I mean Floor did sing a song from Heart. and more women in hardrock and metal will bring them up before The Gathering sorry to say this but they are closer to 3rd tier.


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#910
Ahasverus

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For you, but The Gathering kick-started the modern female, European fronted, goth tinted metal. Without The Gathering there would be no Theatre of Tragedy, Within Temptation and Nightwish, while all other bands follwed from there. You can't seriously tell me Lita Ford and Heart are an influence in Nightwish lol. The Gathering ARE the pioneers, they are effectively a legendary band for the genre.
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#911
some_dude_on_the_interwebs

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The mother of what? If you want to call any one or any band legendary and the mother of  them all that would be Pat Benatar, Lita Ford, and Heart. I mean Floor did sing a song from Heart. and more women in hardrock and metal will bring them up before The Gathering sorry to say this but they are closer to 3rd tier.


I see your Heart and I raise you a Patti Smith and a Grace Slick, then - but I think the point was not "the absolute first successful female rock vocalist" but "the most influential on the gothic/symphonic metal genre" :)
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#912
Serious Sam

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For you, but The Gathering kick-started the modern female, European fronted, goth tinted metal. Without The Gathering there would be no Theatre of Tragedy, Within Temptation and Nightwish, while all other bands follwed from there. You can't seriously tell me Lita Ford and Heart are an influence in Nightwish lol. The Gathering ARE the pioneers, they are effectively a legendary band for the genre.

 

Influence doesn't mean reason for existence though. That's like saying many death metal bands wouldn't have existed without Death. I don't think that's true. They would just be different. Those musicians wouldn't have magically not wanted to make music just because those bands didn't exist. But you're right that legendary and successful are two different things. I mean look at other art forms. Today Kafka is legendary, while in his lifetime he received little attention. Or Franz Schubert who is a legend nowadays but wasn't in his lifetime. It generally doesn't happen that way with metal bands, but the point is that you don't need to be immediately successful to be influential. Or even continuosly successful. You just need to do something new and inspiring.


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#913
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This is getting a bit off-topic. I was a very vivid fan of NW when Tarja was fired (I still remember listening about it on the radio and I was shocked, but of course it was my favorite band in my teenage years so yeah) and when the samples with Anette came out. At that point I was also exploring other similar bands, and I was listening to a lot of After Forever and Therion. I remember that when Dark Passion Play came out, After Forever were a big name with Nuclear Blast, being pushed a lot and having a lot of promotion.

 

There are videos of them playing in huge venues and festivals back then. Now add the years that Anette was in the band. Floor was even more famous then, and even if people didn't know her name, if you said "the tall chick from After Forever who can sing her lungs out" people immediately knew. Floor was not top tier when it came to fame, at that point, but she was up there with Simone, and definitely a thousand times more known than Anette.


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#914
some_dude_on_the_interwebs

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Influence doesn't mean reason for existence though.
That's like saying many death metal bands wouldn't have existed without Death.
I don't think that's true.


:heat:


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#915
Serious Sam

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Well I mean of course they wouldn't have existed as they are now. Maybe the genre as a whole wouldn't have existed as it is now. But those people playing in those bands now would have made music in some form or another. And if that form or another would have been better or worse, who knows? That's all I meant. I didn't mean to take anything away from what Death did for the genre.


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#916
some_dude_on_the_interwebs

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Well I mean of course they wouldn't have existed as they are now. Maybe the genre as a whole wouldn't have existed as it is now. 

 

I get what you mean, but I couldn't stop myself from just taking the sentence out of context and have some fun with it :P

 

Then again, maybe Dark Tranquillity would be playing NWOBHM, maybe Angela Gossow would be playing accordion in a polka band, maybe Laiho would have become a serial killer (assuming he isn't already but just hasn't been caught yet), maybe Frank Mullen would have gotten a corporate job and patented a new kind of paper clip, but what use is contemplating that? :)


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#917
WhiteRaven

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This is getting off the topic of Anette/Nightwish. If you guys want to continue the above discussion, please do so in the Non-Artist Related Discussion area of the forum (I'd suggest opening a new (general) thread, something like genres/influences etc) 


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#918
Serious Sam

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EDIT: I'm not one to go against the mods, so I moved my comment where you suggested it.

 

EDIT 2: The respective topic can be found here: http://www.nightwish...ould-have-been/


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