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Endless Forms Most Beautiful (2015) - Pt. III


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#276
Magnus

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"Oh no, we're not going to have a big mainstream hit single from this album!" said no metal band ever :P


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#277
Ahasverus

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"Oh no, we're not going to have a big mainstream hit single from this album!" said no metal band ever :P

Nightwish has had lots of them, that in my opinion elevated them from bands only metalheads listened to, it was just good music period; back to niche I guess :(

 

So you've seen 5 seconds of a music video clip and that's enough for you to make the conclusion that it's cheap?

What was shown looks cheap, the background isn't even at the same framerate of the band, that's highschool video edition 101. It could still be polished until release so let's see.

 

Yes, I criticize a lot, you know that? because Nightwish sometimes baffles me. it has EVERYTHING, literally, EVERYTHING in the world to have an impeccable carreer, the best singer(s), the best composer, a brilliant concept (mucisally rich atmospheric melodic rock with metal pop and classical influences and poetic lyrics? sign everyone up) great musicians, but it kinds of.. falls short, sometimes. I get frustrated, because they deserve all the success in this world.


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Save Deep Silent Complete! ---- Why Nymphomaniac Fantasia is better than Endless Forms Most Beautiful (The Song)

#278
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So you've seen 5 seconds of a music video clip and that's enough for you to make the conclusion that it's cheap? And if a single doesn't hit #1 (or doesn't generally chart high) that means it failed?

 

I would keep this conversation going, but it seems pretty futile. The broken record will keep playing. 


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#279
Aminar

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"Oh no, we're not going to have a big mainstream hit single from this album!" said no metal band ever :P

Nightwish has had lots of them, that in my opinion elevated them from bands only metalheads listened to, it was just good music period; back to niche I guess :(
Personally, I don't much care. Nightwish makes their music for them. And Endless Forms is a great song. It's a lyrical masterpiece. It's just not easy to get into. But it's perfect for a video given the visual nature of the song. Let's see that Tiiktalik. Let's see Floor holding an Aye-Aye. It'll be awesome.
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#280
TheWayfarer

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Ahasverus & Magus - you two seem to have the most prominent/strong views on this forum, so in a way it's great that you disagree so often! Different perspectives are great! 


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Sometimes a dream turns into a dream...

#281
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But you're making conclusions based on absolutely nothing; that's all I'm saying. You say this album is so awful and Nightwish is wasting all its resources and yet you never base it on anything. 

 

You said in your last post that the "cheap video" (in your view) would contribute to the single completely bombing. Sleeping Sun had a terrible video and it still hit #1. The Siren's video was awful and I think it charted at #3. People said the Elan video was terrible, too, and it still hit #3 and is still on the Finnish charts. It also has over 3 million views a little over a month after release, which I think is more than Storytime had after the same amount of time passed. 


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#282
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Ahasverus, even if the audience was a factor for NW deciding what their singles would be (which isn't) , EFMB was probably decided as a single a long time before the leak.


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#283
Magnus

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Charts also work quite differently now compared to ten years ago. Physical sales hardly count. It's all about how many streams a song can get on Spotify and YouTube these days.


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#284
Yoshee

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Great their worst song ever is the next single, we're screwed.

This sounds like one of Baki's sarcastic/hyperbolic joke posts, though I fear you're actually serious...


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#285
Harvest

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Charts also work quite differently now compared to ten years ago. Physical sales hardly count. It's all about how many streams a song can get on Spotify and YouTube these days.

Pretty much. And 3 million in a month. WT's Paradise has 11 in 1,5 years. And we all know Hydra was their most successful album in US.

 

The commercial success is decided on the road. The tour will show what will happen. In Europe is already as big as it gets for this band. They are performing in Wembley and Bercy, Paris couple to be mentioned. So it's pretty much how successful their upcoming N-American tour will be, especially if they will do another leg in N-America later. The actual growth this band might have, commercially that is, is in the US. And after EFMB there's still single material left, btw.

 

And it's now # 25 and rising in Amazon best sellers list


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#286
18thAngel

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Great their worst song ever is the next single, we're screwed.

It's a bit too late for A Return to the Sea to become a single, don't you think?
This made me giggle out loud and I'm alone in my apartment.
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#287
Ahasverus

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Why Endless Forms Most Beautiful is the Worst Nightwish Song Ever Recorded

"Bu-bu-bu-but Nymphomaniac Fanta-" NO, even including that.

 

Tuomas Holopainen is a brilliant composer. He's gifted.

 

Since his humble beginnings, his music has retained a trademark: deepness. Listening to the band's debut album, Angels Fall First, in modern times feels almost as fresh as it was in the fall of 1997. Holopainen's musical style could be described by a word: cohesion. His songs are not short on variation, again, as evidenced by Nightwish first album (Beauty and the Beast has 4 rhythm changes in its first and half minute). On his own words, his songs tell stories, they're a soundtrack for his own imagination.

 

Nightwish is a very successful band. Its fan base is wider and more varied than that of most bands in the genre (if there is any genre NW could easily be classified as), pop fans, rock fans, metal fans, classical crossover fans, the band reaches all kinds of public. Their secret lies on their musical style, which includes elements that are universally liked and accepted by most part of the public, musically educated or not; those elements are:

 

- Melody and composition

- Arrangement

- Delivery

- Lyrics

- The ever hard to explain: musicality.

 

If I were to explain musicality, I'll define it as the quality of music to make sense on itself. That means, how every element serves to enhance the intention it's trying to tell, which adds to the sense of long lasting appeal of the music, turning it into a piece of work transcending its own act of existing.

 

Those elements are not rigid, nor is there a rule to make them work. Think of a song like "The Sound of Silence". it's just a guitar and two guys singing so the arrangement element isn't about complexity, the delivery is not over played and the melody is not overexposed. Nightwish' composing style used to be, while as varied as ever, very heavy on musicality.

 
Endless Forms Most Beautiful (the song) has, in paper, all those elements, but it lacks the most important: the last one.
 

But first let's examine each of the musical elements.

 

Melody has always been a prominent part of Nightwish, as Holopainen used to write these long, overarching phrases that drove his songs along. Let's quantify that characteristic with one visible element: Measures number per musical phrase.

The very first vocal line in their discography, in Elvenpath lasts for eight measures. Songs like Dead Boy's Poem have phrases that go for more than twelve measures. That means, the melody takes its time to build, it catches the listener's attention and gets to its mind slowly, strongly footed, and satisfying at its conclusion.

 

This has an effect on the long lasting appeal of the songs. Short phrases, or hooks as they're called in the pop industry, are short in attention span; they are sometimes made for that reason, intended to be easily digested and remembered. Some songs are even written as filler between hooks.

 

Now think, what happens to almost every hit pop song? After a while, you don't want to listen to it ever again.

 

Endless Forms Most Beautiful is a collection of hooks with filler in between. The first riff, repeated 16 times if I'm not mistaken, is simple and lacks variation; it doesn't build anything, and after that comes the verse that is a completely different "catchy" motif that goes for other 4 compasses, only to change again, and again, and again, going nowhere but to the next, unrelated hook. The song doesn't build anything, it goes everywhere from nowhere. And that's when the song even tries to be melodic, as a single note repeated and then varied half a tone is not what most people would call a melody.

The ending comes abruptly and feels rushed, just like the beginning, because it was just needed to be done, and the quickest shortcut was taken.

 

Now think about it, what was the last impression the song left? Was it sweet? Anthemic? Dark?

It's nothing. It's pure chaos.

 

Arrangement and instrumentation has been a hit or miss Nightwish staple. There are songs where you wouldn't change a little thing, then some where some elements are seen as unnecessary  (For example, people complaining about "overuse of orchestra" are complaining about the arrangement) or lacking. The arrangement, or body of a song, is to be made in such way that it complements the picture the song tries to draw. Endless Forms Most Beautiful has one of the most savour-less arrangements ever made by Nightwish. The song doesn't know what it is, is it a trash song? a symphonic tinted song? a scary song?  a sweet song? It's all and none of that.

 

The distorted guitars follow the vocal melody without enriching the harmony as they used to do in the past, the drums are on beat yet the guitar goes syncopated, and so, naked in such rhythmical effect; the instrumental transitions are not soft, but sudden and unearned, which goes with the chaotic (unintended) "nature" of the song. For example, what's the point of presenting the after chorus string riff as a classical styled passage if it gets trashed by Metallica guitars the next compass? The vocals are naked, the guitars tacked on in the verses and the drums repetitive. 

 

The song arrangement failed to build a sound that fuses all elements together.

 

Delivery and Lyrics were good. Floor is a terrific singer and the lyrics are just fine.

 

The musicality is nonexistent.

 

...

 

Now, as an exercise, let's go to Nymphomaniac Fantasia. The "go to"  bad Nightwish song.

 

Tell me, what is it about? Easy, it's about lust, it's a about a man longing sexually a woman.

What does the song musically convey? Exactly that.

 

The acoustic intro and the flute adds to that dream, longing atmospheric effect, the drum roll and string riffs are tense and driving, fierce, which paints the "uneasiness" of the song very well. The guitars support the strings and the melody. The melody in the verse goes for TWELVE measures until it delivers and relieves the tension, and each "sentence" is accompanied by a chord change which separates every lyric phrase from another. When the keyboard comes in and Tuomas makes a solo, the time measure is changed and the atmosphere is completely transformed, all while relieving tension and building to the next phrase you know it's coming, but you don't know how is it coming.

 

The melody is arching and goes inside your head without having to be a collection of high catchy notes, there are no hooks, just building and melodic progression, the strings return as a callback to the already presented motif and the guitar once again supports the rest of the instruments and then a flute comes and closes the song, the phrase all the song was building for finally appeared, a mysterious, exotic melody flying over every other element presented. The song ends abruptly, but the flute part already ended, the song wanted to go there, it already did, so it ends.

 

Nymphomaniac Fantasy is much better than Endless Forms Most Beautiful (The Song).

 

The song is not even that good, but it makes sense on itself, it builds, it tenses and it relieves, it delivers, conveys its message, tells its story, and the instruments add to that. Meanwhile, EFMB (The song) only leaves the listener wondering what was that, what was the thing it tried to do. It's not musically satisfying because it's a collection of notes and hooks and not a coherent piece of music.

 

This problem is apparent through all the album, motifs are repeated where they shouldn't, phrases are cut short, phrases go overlong and to nowhere, mood changes come and go without a goal or clear intention. But EFMB (the song) is the worst culprit on an already troubled work.

 

Yours is an Empty Hope might be boring and uninteresting, but EFMB (The song) is not even boring, it catches your attention because it tries so hard to do it, the constant melody changes, the short hooks, the instrumentation change, it's always shouting "HERE, I'M PLAYING, LISTEN, LISTEN" and it leaves the listener tired and worst of all, unsatisfied.

 

Nightwish music never had that problem before this album, it all made sense, it was surprising, it used to leave us in awe, it used to fill our minds with colorful images. It didn't need to hammer you the point, it was the canvas where you projected yourself. It was personal, sentimental and musically rich.

 

The lack of musicality is, why I consider EFMB (The song) worse than every Nightwish song ever recorded.


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Save Deep Silent Complete! ---- Why Nymphomaniac Fantasia is better than Endless Forms Most Beautiful (The Song)

#288
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Yay! Can we agree that from now on you can make posts like that instead of blanket statements like "this song sucks"? :P 


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#289
DarkChestofElan

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One of the better songs in EFMB getting next single makes me very happy. Song is in my upper echelon for the album.


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Listen to a daffodil tell her tale


#290
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I would say it's, with those short "hooky" melodies and the arrangement, like the improved version of Storytime in a way. And I like that dance beat. 


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#291
Peregrinus

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But Ahasverus, don't you contradict yourself in the sense that if this song is a mere collection of meaningless phrases around a few hooks, isn't it just perfect single material then, thinking purely commercially? :P


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#292
Ahasverus

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But Ahasverus, don't you contradict yourself in the sense that if this song is a mere collection of meaningless phrases around a few hooks, isn't it just perfect single material then, thinking purely commercially? :P

That's you saying all mainstream (ALL music is commercial) music is meaningless and hooky, which just isn't true.


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Save Deep Silent Complete! ---- Why Nymphomaniac Fantasia is better than Endless Forms Most Beautiful (The Song)

#293
Harvest

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I can understand his agony about this song, though. It's pretty much the same what I felt and still feel about Storytime and I Wish I had an Angel. But somehow this time it's different, EFMB, is enjoyable to listen to. At least for me that is. I don't don't want to hit my head to the table when I listen to it. Ahasverus clearly wants to and really, it's the same for me with Storytime. 


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#294
Aminar

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But you're making conclusions based on absolutely nothing; that's all I'm saying. You say this album is so awful and Nightwish is wasting all its resources and yet you never base it on anything.

The album is not super awuful IMO, it's just underwhelming, I rated it 6/10. The thing about the video it's just an observation, I'm not faulting it for the future failure. Sleeping Sun's video wasn't super bad for its time either.
 
I have explained my musical views again and again and again. Yet out of respect for you, I will give you a detailed analysis.
 
 
Why Endless Forms Most Beautiful is the Worst Nightwish Song Ever Recorded
"Bu-bu-bu-but nymphormaniac fanta-" NO, even incluiding that.
 
Tuomas Holopainen is a brilliant composer. He's gifted. Since his humble beginnings, his music has retained a tardemark: deepness. Listening to the band's debut album, Angels Fall First, in modern times feels almost as fresh as it was in the fall of 1997. Holopainen's musical style could be described by a word: cohesion. His songs are not short on variation, again, as evidenced by Nightwish first album, Beauty and the Beast has 4 rythm changes in its first and half minute. In his own words, his songs tell stories, they're a soundtrack for his own imagination.
 
Nightwish is a very successful band. Its fanbase is wider and more varied than most bands in the genre (if there is any NW could be classified as) pop fans, rock fans, metal fans, classical crossover fans, the bands has it all in its public. The secret for that lied on its musical style, which included elements that are universally liked and accepted by most part of the public, musically educated or not, those lements are:
 
- Melody and composition
- Arrangement
- Delivery
- Lyrics
- The ever hard to explain: musicality.
 
If I were to explain musicality, I'll define it as the quality of music to make sense on itself. That means, how every element serves to enhance the intention it's trying to tell, which adds to the sense of long lasting appeal of the music turning it into a piece of work trascending its own act of existing.
Endless Forms Most Beautiful (the song) has, in paper, all those elements, but it lacks the most important: the last one.
 
Those elements are not rigid, nor is there a rule to make them work. Think of a song like "The Sound of Silence". it's just a guitar and two guys singing so the arrangement element isn't about complexity, the delivery is not over played and the melody is not overexposed.
 
Nightwish' composing style used to be, while as varied as ever, very heavy on musicality. But first let's examine each of the musical elements.
 
Melody has always been a prominent part of Nightwish, as Holopainen used to write these long, overarching phrases that drove his songs along. Let's quantify that characteristic with one visible element: Measure number per musical phrase. The very first vocal line in their discography, in Elvenpath lasts for eight measures. Songs like Dead Boy's Poem have phrases that go for more than twelve measures. That means, the melody takes its time to build, it catches the listener's attention and gets to its mind slowly, strongly footed, and satifying at its conclusion.
This has an effect on the long lasting appeal of the songs. Short phrases, or hooks as they're called in the pop industry are short in attention span, they are sometimes made for that reason, intending for them to be easily digested and remembered. Some songs are even writen as filler between hooks. Now think, what happens to almost every hit pop song? After a while, you don't want to listen to it ever again.
Endless Forms Most Beautiful is a collection of hooks with filler in between. The first riff, repeated 16 times if I'm not wrong, it's simple and lacks variation, it doesn't build anything, but then comes the verse that is a completely different "catchy" motif that goes for other 4 compasses, only to change again, and again, and again, going nowhere but to the next, unrelated hook. The song doesn't build anything, it goes everywhere from nowhere.
That's when the song tries even to be melodic, as a single note repeated and then varied half a tone is not what most people would call a melody.
The ending comes abrubtly and feels rushed like, just like the beginning, it was just needed to be done, and the quickest shorcut was taken. What was the last impression the song left? Was it sweet? Anthemic? Dark? it's nothing. It's pure chaos.
 
Arrangement and instrumentation has been a hit or miss Nightwish staple. There are songs where you wouldn't change a little thing, then some where some elements are seen as uneccessary (as an example, people complaining about "over use of orchestra" are complaining about the arrangement). The arrangement, or body of a song, is to be made in such way that it complements the picture the song tries to draw. Endless Forms Most Beautiful has one of the most savourless arrangements ever made by Nightwish. The song doesn't know what it is, a trash song? a symphonic tinted song? a scary song?  a sweet song? It's all and none of that. The distorted  guitars follow the vocal melody without enrichenning the harmony as in the past, the drums are on beat yet the guitar goes syncopathed and naked in such rythmical effect, the transition of instrumentation is not soft, but sudden, which goes with the chaothic nature of the song. For example, what's the point of presenting the after chorus string riff as a classical styled passage if it gets trashed by Metallica guitars the next compass? The vocals are naked, the guitars tacked on in the verses and the drums repetitive. The song arrangement failed to build a sound tht fuses all elements togheter.
 
Delivery and Lyrics were good. Floor is a terrific singer and the lyrics are just fine.
 
The musicality is nonexistant.
Let's go to Nymphormaniac Fantasia. The "go to" Nightwish bad song.
What is it about? It's about lust, it's a about a man longing sexually a woman. What does the song conveys? Exactly that, the acoustic intro and the flute adds that dream, longing atmospheric effect, the drum roll and string riff are tense and driving, fierce, which paints the "uneasiness" of the song very well. The guitars support the strings and the melody. The melody in the verse goes for TWELVE measures until it delivers and relieves the tension, and each "sentence" is accompained by a chord change which separates every lyric phrase from another. When the keyboard comes and Tuomas makes a solo the time measure is changed and the atmosphere is changed while relieving tension and building to the next phase you know it's coming, but you don't know how it is coming. The melody is arching and goes inside your head without having to be a collection of high catchy notes, there are no hooks, just building and melodic progression, the strings return as a callback to the already presented motif and the guitar once again supports the rest of the instruments and then a flute comes and closes the song, the phrase all the song was building for finally appeared, a mysterious, exotic melody flying over every other element presented. The song ends abruptly, but the flute part already ended, the song wanted to go there, it already did, so it ends.
 
Nymphormaniac Fantasy is musically better than Endless Forms Most Beautiful (The Song).
 
The song is not even good, but it makes sense on itself, it builds, it tenses and it relieves, it delivers, conveys the messsage, tells its story and the instruements add to that. EFMB (The song) only leaves the listener wondering what was that, what was the thing it tried to do. It's not musically satysfying beause it's a collection of notes and hooks and not a coherent piece of music.
 
This problem is aparent thorugh all the album, motifs are repeated where they shouldn't, phrases are cut short, phrases go overlong and to nowehere, mood changes come and go without a goal or clear intention. But EFMB (the song) is the worst culprit on an already troubled album. Yours is an Empty Hope might be boring and uninteresting, but EFMB (The song) is not even boring, it catches your attention because it tries so hard to do it, the constant melody changes, the short hooks, the instrumentation change, it's always shouting "HERE, I'M PLAYING, LISTEN, LISTEN" and it leaves the listener tired and worst of all, unsatisfied. Nightwish music never had that problem before this album, it all made sense, it was surprising, it used to leave us in awe, it used to fill our minds with colorful images. It didn't need to hammer you the point, it was the canvas where you projected yourself. It was personal, sentimental and musically rich.
 
The lack of musicality is, why I consider EFMB (The song) worst than every Nightwish song ever recorded.
And yet many of us like the song. Meaning that for many of us the musicality is there. Just because it isn't for you doesn't mean you shoupd repeatedly bash and snark on the album. Say something new. Stop trying to kill everyones enjoyment of the music. Because that is all repeating various rephrasements of "this album is dissapointing" can possibly do is make people lose joy. You've made your criticism. We get it. And I'm glad you explained it. But stop snarking now. It's unkind to the fans and the band.
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#295
Ahasverus

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Doesn't mean you shoupd repeatedly bash and snark on the album. Say something new. Stop trying to kill everyones enjoyment of the music. Because that is all repeating various rephrasements of "this album is dissapointing" can possibly do is make people lose joy. You've made your criticism. We get it. And I'm glad you explained it. But stop snarking now. It's unkind to the fans and the band.

 

I won't stop, sorry, this is a discussion board, not a praising board. Everyone has the right, and the hability, to form their own opinion without my, yours or anyone's opinion to influence them. You can always hit the ignore button and never know anything from me again, If I'm dampering your enjoyment, for what I'm sorry.


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Save Deep Silent Complete! ---- Why Nymphomaniac Fantasia is better than Endless Forms Most Beautiful (The Song)

#296
Season

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Doesn't mean you shoupd repeatedly bash and snark on the album. Say something new. Stop trying to kill everyones enjoyment of the music. Because that is all repeating various rephrasements of "this album is dissapointing" can possibly do is make people lose joy. You've made your criticism. We get it. And I'm glad you explained it. But stop snarking now. It's unkind to the fans and the band.

 

I won't stop, sorry, this is a discussion board, not a praising board. Everyone has the right, and the hability, to form their own opinion without my, yours or anyone's opinion to influence them.

 

You're right, it is a DISCUSSION board. But statements like "this is the worst song NW has ever made" are not discussions, and they don't promote any discussions. If you have an opinion, there are ways to express it constructively, which is why I +1'd your post above. 


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#297
Yoshee

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The thing is, Ahasverus, there's a difference between contributing to a discussion and repeatedly popping up just to say bad things about the album, and from the last few pages of this thread you seem to be doing more of the latter than the former. I'm not here to try and police what should and shouldn't be posted on here, but there comes a point when you have to step back and think "is this really contributing anything or am I just venting"? It seems the majority of your posts in this thread now are just there to put down on the album - posts such as you stating that EFMB is "the worst song Nightwish has ever made" or coming back to just remind us of your opinion that YIAEH is a terrible song, for example. Posts like the one you made above where you explain your opinion and expand on it, providing reasons to help us understand your view, are great, and definitely contribute to discussion. It's the posts that seem only there to add a negative comment (stated in a very matter-of-fact way too, as if your opinion is truth - I'm sure you don't mean to do this, but it still comes across very blunt and snarky, as Aminar said) that are the problem.

 

I'll say no more on the matter, but this is my view.


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#298
Ahasverus

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Season, on 29 Mar 2015 - 5:33 PM, said:
You're right, it is a DISCUSSION board. But statements like "this is the worst song NW has ever made" are not discussions, and they don't promote any discussions. If you have an opinion, there are ways to express it constructively, which is why I +1'd your post above.


Haha thank you! If could do that for every Nightwish song in existance, but that would be weird, I actually cut 4 paragraphs from my post, perhaps I'll write a book analyzing Nightwish songs someday :P The thing is, as requested, this time I detailed my criticism and explained very well the whole "This is the worst song NW has ever made" sentence word by word, so not only discussion is being had, but the whole "You're ruining my life" or whatever thing has no real ground; if I give you my reasons to why I strongly dislike this song and you (general you) definetely don't agree with any of them, just shrug me off and continue, I don't want you to share my "bitterness", I want to express it the same way you want to express your joy. You can see me being joyful in other parts of the forum (or when talking about Alpenglow haha) So don't take me as "one of them", I'm one of you, a fan with strong feelings.

I'll try to make more detailed posts if you liked that one then! I have lots of fun writing them, just letting my feelings go wild when describing Nightwish music, that's what I do in real life and people often give me weird looks :swoon: .


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Save Deep Silent Complete! ---- Why Nymphomaniac Fantasia is better than Endless Forms Most Beautiful (The Song)

#299
Magnus

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It's a completely different game for metal bands compared to popstars though.

 

Nightwish = all about the albums.

Rihanna = all about the singles.

 

Metal bands make a living by being musicians. They tour a lot.

 

Popstars earn a great chunk of their income based on their celebrity status. Like endorsement deals and such.

 

Chart positions are not that important. There are a couple of things that the singles from this album should do:

  • Appeal to newer fans (like √Član)
  • Appeal to the older fans (like Shudder Before the Beautiful)
  • Remind people that this is still a symphonic metal band and not a hit single factory (I think the title track gives this impression)

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#300
Jair Crawford

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Magnus, I actually thought about bringing up songs like Nymphomaniac Fantasia (that's my go-to song if someone makes a claim that something is "the worst"), but you beat me to the punch :P
 
Sorry, but I don't think this forum represents the entire fan base, and certainly your opinion doesn't represent everyone else's...


Am I the only person who actually finds that song to be quite nice? From a musical standpoint at least. Lol

Anyways, I do think Alpenglow would have been a better single but who knows. They may be planning to release it in the future. It already looks like they're doing more than two this time around which is good.
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