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Floor's Metal Test [Metal Hammer]


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#26
Ahasverus

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God forbid one listens to the Weeknd AND Nightwish.
 

 
While I appreciate the diplomatic way you're addressing me, you have no idea what you're talking about.  Especially when it comes to Black Sabbath.  Do yourself a favor and look up how Black Sabbath is admired by punk musicians like The Ramones, Henry Rollins and Bille Joe Armstrong.  And Frank Zappa (though he's not exactly punk).

Those fresh faced visionaries.
 
Have you heard the term "dad rock"?
So what if they're old?  They're still more respected in music discussion circles than you or Nightwish will ever be.    Also careful with that term.  By your description Nightwish is going to be that in only a couple of years.

 

Yeah yeah I checked. 
 
But we all know that Nightwish is not bigger because it's signed with Nuclear Blast and not, you know, a real serious label. A Universal/Sony backed NW would top every chart and you know it.

That's my biggest fear actually. For them to become stagnant. EFMB is already showing sings, so yeah, I'm worried.

No....no they really wouldn't.


They have the most commercial "metal" catalogue ever.
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#27
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God forbid one listens to the Weeknd AND Nightwish.
 

 
While I appreciate the diplomatic way you're addressing me, you have no idea what you're talking about.  Especially when it comes to Black Sabbath.  Do yourself a favor and look up how Black Sabbath is admired by punk musicians like The Ramones, Henry Rollins and Bille Joe Armstrong.  And Frank Zappa (though he's not exactly punk).

Those fresh faced visionaries.
 
Have you heard the term "dad rock"?
So what if they're old?  They're still more respected in music discussion circles than you or Nightwish will ever be.    Also careful with that term.  By your description Nightwish is going to be that in only a couple of years.

 

Yeah yeah I checked. 
 
But we all know that Nightwish is not bigger because it's signed with Nuclear Blast and not, you know, a real serious label. A Universal/Sony backed NW would top every chart and you know it.

That's my biggest fear actually. For them to become stagnant. EFMB is already showing sings, so yeah, I'm worried.

No....no they really wouldn't.


They have the most commercial "metal" catalogue ever.

 

Now you're changing the subject.  We aren't talking about a catalog (and even if we were, again, no they don't) we're talking about whether a new album by Nightwish would top the Billboard top 200 if backed by a major label.  I'm going to say no they wouldn't.


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#28
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I say yes. I would be surprised if the next one doesn't crack the top 15,and that's with literally zero label work, all on them. EFMB was 25 in think, that's kinda unbelievable. They're an indie band in all but paper.
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#29
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*desparately needs more popcorn* :popcorn: 

 

Once again, it seems like Floor is keeping us on our toes! I can't help but it feels it like a breath of fresh air to me if someone blasts out his or her heartfelt opinion to the public. I agree that she may have been a bit harsh but then again, all the over-polished interviews you get from many mainstream artists are in fact unbelivably boring.

 

I have actually seen both Slayer and Nightwish on the same evening, i.e. at a festival in Dortmund on 28 May 2016 - indeed a weird line-up which included Anthrax and Apocalyptica as well. Nightwish was headlining this festival day. Admittedly, Gary Holt may be a legendary and technically adept guitar player, and these guys have been around for quite some time, but the whole set just sounded very repetitive - and indeed boring - to me. Nightiwish was the next and final act and what should I say? Albeit the setlist was short (12 songs only), Sahara, GLS and TGSOE were just fabulous. But that is obviously just my appreciation.

 

For the records and, more specifically, the metal compartmentalisers on this forum, I am not a fan of Slayer but a fan of Iron Maiden next to Nightwish. Where to put me now? 1/2 metal with a deduction for liking NW's EFMB, however, with a potential prog metal bonus for Ayreon?

 

Seriously, it does not make sense. I have never understood why people some are so tempted to do all these pseudo-scientific categorisations and valuations of musical taste in metal, where metal music in the first place should be an expression of personhood and not of affiliation with a certain metal "tribe".

 

Being (also) a fan of Iron Maiden, it would never come to my mind to call into question someone who identifies a metal for not being a fan of that band since there exists no divine or whatsoever commandment that you must be a fan of that band to qualify as "metal". To invoke Arch Enemy's guitarist Michael Amott (sic!), who recently said in an interview when asked how to bridge cultural differences with Canadian frontwoman Alyssa White-Gluz:

 

"Our love for metal music connects us on a much deeper level."


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#30
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I say yes. I would be surprised if the next one doesn't crack the top 15, and that's with literally zero label work, all on them. EFMB was 25 in think, that's kinda unbelievable. They're an indie band in all but paper.

First of all it was 34.  Which is even less impressive.  I was going to say any old metal band with some mileage can pull off a #25 spot on the charts.  Slayer was on Nuclear Blast when its record came out, and that thing came out at #4.  Topping the charts doesn't really mean anything anymore anyway as the overall record sales themselves are lower than they've ever been in the music business.  Shit that Black Sabbath album that went #1 didn't even go gold.

 

 

 


*desparately needs more popcorn:popcorn:

 

Once again, it seems like Floor is keeping us on our toes! I can't help but it feels it like a breath of fresh air to me if someone blasts out his or her heartfelt opinion to the public. I agree that she may have been a bit harsh but then again, all the over-polished interviews you get from many mainstream artists are in fact unbelivably boring.

 

I have actually seen both Slayer and Nightwish on the same evening, i.e. at a festival in Dortmund on 28 May 2016 - indeed a weird line-up which included Anthrax and Apocalyptica as well. Nightwish was headlining this festival day. Admittedly, Gary Holt may be a legendary and technically adept guitar player, and these guys have been around for quite some time, but the whole set just sounded very repetitive - and indeed boring - to me. Nightiwish was the next and final act and what should I say? Albeit the setlist was short (12 songs only), Sahara, GLS and TGSOE were just fabulous. But that is obviously just my appreciation.

 

For the records and, more specifically, the metal compartmentalisers on this forum, I am not a fan of Slayer but a fan of Iron Maiden next to Nightwish. Where to put me now? 1/2 metal with a deduction for liking NW's EFMB, however, with a potential prog metal bonus for Ayreon?

 

Seriously, it does not make sense. I have never understood why people some are so tempted to do all these pseudo-scientific categorisations and valuations of musical taste in metal, where metal music in the first place should be an expression of personhood and not of affiliation with a certain metal "tribe".

 

Being (also) a fan of Iron Maiden, it would never come to my mind to call into question someone who identifies a metal for not being a fan of that band since there exists no divine or whatsoever commandment that you must be a fan of that band to qualify as "metal". To invoke Arch Enemy's guitarist Michael Amott (sic!), who recently said in an interview when asked how to bridge cultural differences with Canadian frontwoman Alyssa White-Gluz:

 

"Our love for metal music connects us on a much deeper level."

 First of all, honestly you'd be less metal if you liked Slayer but hated Iron Maiden in my book.  Second of all, its not that weird of a lineup to have Slayer and Nightwish on the same bill.  That's a metal festival.  You know whats weird?  Slayer, Solange and Van Morrison on the same bill.  THAT's weird.

 

unnamed-5-1480513669-compressed.png

 

Slayer actually played a festival with Billy Joel too.  

 

Third of all, the reason this conversation ended up the way it did is not because some people don't like Slayer, its because Ahlawhatsis was feltching pure ignorance from his mouth like "most metal is try-hard garbage except for Nightwish."


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#31
Ahasverus

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Am I wrong though, a quick glance on metal archives brings me a lot of "hell beasts", "storm of sorrows", "Swords of darkness" and so on and on. The quantity of metal acts is astounding, and the musical value proportion is really, really small in comparison.

I'm not going to bash Maiden, they're legendary, nor Black Sabbath, or any good modern band. But excuse me if I express my unenthisiasm for the endless stream of guys screaming "I hate the world it suuucks" or wannabe sopranos singing to the deep blue moon. Good bands are one in a million, as in pretty much every genre, but there are just too damn many bad metal bands, amd worst of all, try hards with delusions of depth or edge.

It's that edgy, seclusive, impenetrable aura, along with the lack of musical adaptation what kills the mainstream appeal of metal.
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#32
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Am I wrong though, a quick glance on metal archives brings me a lot of "hell beasts", "storm of sorrows", "Swords of darkness" and so on and on. The quantity of metal acts is astounding, and the musical value proportion is really, really small in comparison.

I'm not going to bash Maiden, they're legendary, nor Black Sabbath, or any good modern band. But excuse me if I express my unenthisiasm for the endless stream of guys screaming "I hate the world it suuucks" or wannabe sopranos singing to the deep blue moon. Good bands are one in a million, as in pretty much every genre, but there are just too damn many bad metal bands, amd worst of all, try hards with delusions of depth or edge.

It's that edgy, seclusive, impenetrable aura, along with the lack of musical adaptation what kills the mainstream appeal of metal.

I'm not well versed in argument deflection tactics, so I have no idea what the hell citing millions of bands with barely a demo out (not seeing the trees for the forest?) is called, but this is still a lame excuse.  So you're judging based on names?  I wonder how many people took a look at the name Nightwish and wrote them off as cheesy gothic crap before listening to Wishmaster and Oceanborn?  You're gonna find that poor signal to noise ratio with music PERIOD.  Metal-archives is just the only site that has a genre catalogued, as far as I know anyway (and even then they're missing a few as they refuse to have Van Halen among others be a part of the archives).  Most of those bands probably aren't even active!  Want to judge jazz and punk by how many of the mediocre acts in that genre have come and gone?

 

I will more than happily agree with the notion that not every metal band is good, but your statement still reeks of ignorance and of someone who hasn't done a whole lot of research into the genre.

 

So yes, you are wrong.  Very wrong.


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#33
Ahasverus

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Except there's no need to go to the niche garage bands, you have cringeworthy stuff like the newest Leaves Eyes and, hell, Tarja intent to be "edgy". It's not some of them, the major players are like that. On the other hand there is Metallica and their aaaangry social critique (from some of the richest, snobbiest guys around in the genre) and so on and on.

Why can't they just, you know, write music without an intention? Like, just what they like without putting an act. OR go full theatrical and satirical like Ghost or full self serious but at least with the writing and musical chops as Nw to back it up. Please don't use your social criticism to get rich while you scream while sleepwalking or dress up like.. Vikings, while totally serious about how artistic you are.

That's why metal is seen as a try hard genre, and for many fans it's not about the music, it's about how metal you can be.

The sad part? There are many legit, good bands that are thrown in the bin with the other guys. Great legacy acts that still pour out quality and new, great bands that are expanding the genre. But they're not going to break easily and get the success they deserve, because metal heads will either not forgive their attempt to change, or will not support them for not being angryyyy enough, and the general public won't cry for another niche band that was not even good enough for its public.

That's how it is.
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#34
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Except there's no need to go to the niche garage bands, you have cringeworthy stuff like the newest Leaves Eyes and, hell, Tarja intent to be "edgy". It's not some of them, the major players are like that. On the other hand there is Metallica and their aaaangry social critique (from some of the richest, snobbiest guys around in the genre) and so on and on.

Why can't they just, you know, write music without an intention? Like, just what they like without putting an act. OR go full theatrical and satirical like Ghost or full self serious but at least with the writing and musical chops as Nw to back it up. Please don't use your social criticism to get rich while you scream while sleepwalking or dress up like.. Vikings, while totally serious about how artistic you are.

That's why metal is seen as a try hard genre, and for many fans it's not about the music, it's about how metal you can be.

The sad part? There are many legit, good bands that are thrown in the bin with the other guys. Great legacy acts that still pour out quality and new, great bands that are expanding the genre. But they're not going to break easily and get the success they deserve, because metal heads will either not forgive their attempt to change, or will not support them for not being angryyyy enough, and the general public won't cry for another niche band that was not even good enough for its public.

That's how it is.

"You can't be wealthy and angry/provide commentary at the same time" is a really, really stupid criticism.  There's some try hard shit in other genres too.  I'll admit that the "edginess" in metal is an annoying problem, particularly with some young fans of the genre, but it really seems like you're trying to do some weird inverse "not seeing the forest for the trees" argument.  I don't view metal as its presented to us by Metal Hammer or whatever marketing corporation.  I view it as some logical successor to original rock & roll with riffs, solos and singing.  You're original statement made it seem like Nightwish was only one of 2 good metal bands and the other one was some lightweight shit for girls.  And now it seems like you're trying to backtrack and say "oh there were good legends too" particularly after knocking thrash, one of my favorite sub-genres of the whole thing.  I'll totally agree metal is not in a great state right now, but Nightwish in their current direction is NOT the answer to its problems.


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#35
Ahasverus

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Thrash is trash in my opinion but that's because I detest noise, I'm never agreeing with you on its musical value. I respect your liking of it, but if Floor thinks it's the same boring stuff over and over, I agree wholeheartedly with her.

 

For the other "branch" of the topic, now  we're not as different. As I said, it's not that there is a shortage of good bands, it's that the bad vastly, and I mean vastly outnumbers the good, and hinders them.  That's why between the thousands of "metal" bands, only a few are decent enough to be taken seriously.

 

And I also agree with your last part, NW is not the current answer.. but it could be, it could really be, or so I think. That might be just me being a fanboy, but this side of 2005 Within Temptation, I don't see any current band other than NW making the great breakthrough that could give metal a renaissance. It's versatile, but deeply rooted, in a way it doesn't need to sell out to appeal to the wide audience, it just needs to, well, adjust a little, sonically I mean, because it still sounds like it comes from 2005. Other than that, metal, Nightwish or not, needs a savior, and a spiritual guide imo.


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#36
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Thrash is trash in my opinion but that's because I detest noise, I'm never agreeing with you on its musical value. I respect your liking of it, but if Floor thinks it's the same boring stuff over and over, I agree wholeheartedly with her.

 

For the other "branch" of the topic, now  we're not as different. As I said, it's not that there is a shortage of good bands, it's that the bad vastly, and I mean vastly outnumbers the good, and hinders them.  That's why between the thousands of "metal" bands, only a few are decent enough to be taken seriously.

 

And I also agree with your last part, NW is not the current answer.. but it could be, it could really be, or so I think. That might be just me being a fanboy, but this side of 2005 Within Temptation, I don't see any current band other than NW making the great breakthrough that could give metal a renaissance. It's versatile, but deeply rooted, in a way it doesn't need to sell out to appeal to the wide audience, it just needs to, well, adjust a little, sonically I mean, because it still sounds like it comes from 2005. Other than that, metal, Nightwish or not, needs a savior, and a spiritual guide imo.

Floor didn't even say anything about the entire genre.  Just one band, so again, you're wrong.

 

And Nightwish are just too far along in their creative careers for that to happen.  These "commercial breakthroughs" only happen with young bands, not bands celebrating a 20th year anniversary.  I would love it for old bands stuck in the underground for years, like High On Fire to breakthrough, but I just don't see that happening.


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#37
Ahasverus

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Tell that to Aerosmith :P They were famous in the 70's, but it was their 90's comeback album what brought them to world fame haha.


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#38
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Tell that to Aerosmith :P They were famous in the 70's, but it was their 90's comeback album what brought them to world fame haha.

 

That was a comeback, not a breakthrough.  (also, that was in the 80s).  They also didn't spearhead a renaissance either.


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#39
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Dreaming is free I guess


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#40
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Dreaming is free I guess

Except its not a dream.  Aerosmith was still previously established in the mainstream in the 70s.  They had two or three top 40 hits the pop world knew about.  Nightwish never did that.


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#41
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.... Well, this escalated quickly :P

 

On the one hand, I think it was somewhat unnecessary for Floor to reply to a question about "What is the most metal thing you own?" by taking the oppurtunity to bash another band. It kind of felt like she segued just to be negative, and came across as a bit meanspirited. I mean, if another band replied to that same question by saying something like "Well, definitely not Nightwish, they suck/ they're boring/ they seem to have substituted "innovation" for "make the long song even longer next time!"", I think we could all agree that was a bit of a cheap shot ;). On the other hand, there's no need to bash her simply for having that opinion. Slayer are a huge band in the genre, but that doesn't mean that everyone who enjoys metal has to like them. I speak as a high fantasy fan who has no time whatsoever for Lord of the Rings :P (Just to clear up: I recognise and respect Tolkein's massive influence on the genre, but when it comes to stories I enjoy reading and characters whose fates I care about, subsequent authors, IMO, have done it better). I'm also pretty indifferent to Slayer, TBH. Given that metal, like most other genres, is pretty wide ranging in it's sounds and subgenres, it would be much less likely if there WAS a band every fan of the genre could agree they enjoyed.


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#42
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Dreaming is free I guess

Except its not a dream.  Aerosmith was still previously established in the mainstream in the 70s.  They had two or three top 40 hits the pop world knew about.  Nightwish never did that.

I was just talking about how a well established band could change course and still be successful. And I was the one dreaming.

 

I'm not necessarily saying NW will become the new Adele haha, come on, but gaining a respectable sizable fan base, which pours new life into the metal genre later down the line, is possible. They have the chops, they just need good guidance from industry juggernauts.

 

At this point we're just antagonizing so I'll leave it here. We're never meeting eye to eye and for that I'm sorry. Carry on.

 

I still agree with Floor and hope she keeps telling her mind every day.


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#43
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 And I was the one dreaming.

 

Oh my bad, I thought you were antagonizing me.


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#44
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I think there needs to be a distinction here: I have no problem with her saying Slayer is a boring band. I think so too, from what I've heard of them. But to call them dreadful, no. No matter what you think of their music, Slayer are metal legends, and they've worked very hard for it. They are a good band, it's not like they can't play. And I don't even think that's what Floor meant with dreadful, but I get how people could see it that way. I think Manowar is a hillariously overrated band in terms of their music, but as a musician I think you still need to show those bands the respect they deserve for their accomplishments. I personally don't love Eric Adams' voice, but I'll never question that the man can sing. 

 

 

.... Well, this escalated quickly :P

 

I mean, if another band replied to that same question by saying something like "Well, definitely not Nightwish, they suck/ they're boring/ they seem to have substituted "innovation" for "make the long song even longer next time!"", I think we could all agree that was a bit of a cheap shot ;)

 

So they can say it in private but not in public? I mean fans say it all the time, why can't bands say it? Personally I can totally see how other bands could see Nightwish as, not as a band who sucks but as an overrated band. I mean there are bands who are technically far better than Nightwish as individual players and don't get a fraction of the attention Nightwish gets. Not for singers so much now that they have Floor, but for keyboarders and guitarists I could definitely see that. Not saying that what Emppu and Tuomas play is easy, but just speaking for the keyboard side I don't think it's super hard either. And even composition wise, Nightwish has the orchestra and melodies but their song structures (from the number of individual parts and how they are chained together, and with obvious exceptions) aren't all that impressive. Hits like Wish I had an angel or Nemo have the most boring song structure in the world. 

 

My point is, who better than to judge how good a band is than another musician? You should still show respect, but if Tuomas would say "this guy really sucks as a keyboarder" that to me has more credibility than the oppinion of some random fan on the internet who has never touched a keyboard in his life (and for the record, no, I'm not a random fan on the internet in that regard, I've been playing keyboard as a hobby with some basic musical education for over 10 years and have seen professional piano players live).

 

I mean if a coming up singer would say this, yeah that's not smart only because of the backlash it creates. But she's Floor Jansen. She doesn't have to give a damn. She is at that "I don't care how you talk about me, just spell my name correctly" point. Not saying she did this deliberately to bring attention to herself, I'm pretty sure she didn't, but she doesn't have to care about the backlash. And she sure as hell doesn't have to care about what Slayer fans think of her. Slayer's fanbase and Nightwish's probably don't exactly have a lot of overlap (not saying you CAN'T like Slayer and Nightwish, just that people who like Slayer probably often don't like Nightwish and vice versa because the music is really different. Kind of how you can like black metal and operas, but many don't).


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#45
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I'm honestly astonished that this topic was started and that people care about stuff like this. I wouldn't care if she called my favorite music "dreadfully boring." That's such a personal and subjective metric (whether or not something is "boring").

And some of the elitist, purist attitudes on display are really gross. People like what they like, music crosses genres and evolves and changes. It's not a big deal.

Anyhow, everyone who can't deal with the fact that a lady said their favorite band is boring need to get thicker skin.
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#46
jefftheterrible

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And some of the elitist, purist attitudes on display are really gross. People like what they like, music crosses genres and evolves and changes. It's not a big deal.

 

You know, I don't really care what Floor has to say on the matter, for various reasons, and I'll get into some of those later. It's comments such as yours which do more to burn my ass than anything she could say. 

See, some of us were around and stuck to our guns as Metal fans at times when you were more or less expected to be a 'cowboy bepop' sort and listen to Garth Brooks and carry on about Country you were even though you lived in the suburbs or else sag your pants below your ass and - in spite again of being white and from the suburbs - talking about how you "da illest gangsta in da hood". Some of us can remember Tipper Gore and the PMRC, and how they poisoned the minds of parents and the general public with the notion that, if your kid listens to Metal, they're going to join a cult and torture small animals, and we had to weather a whole rash of shit we caught for it. Now, it's a scene flooded with trendwhores, bandwagon jumpers, fly-by-nighters, and all other sorts of "just add water" Metal 'fans' who, if the tide suddenly shifted and Metal fans found themselves again under the same sort of scrutiny, would be among the first to jump ship. 

So no, I don't have much regard for those people, and many of your most admired artists in the scene nowadays came up from that, Floor included. And it's not that I don't respect them as artists, but I don't heed their opinions on these matters any more than I do any other fly-by-nighter. She's more than free to think whatever she wants of their music... there's no obligation to like every band out there - even the pioneering bands of their times. But Floor and others need to also realize that, had it not been for the bands who took groups such as the PMRC and even the courts - as is the case with Judas Priest - head on, Metal would never have the level of acceptance it has today, and the stigma behind it - even though it's not entirely nonexistent now - would remain so much more prevalent. Had Judas Priest not won that civil case against them in 89, musicians - not just Metal musicians, but any considered in any way to be controversial - would be wide open to frivolous lawsuits attempting to ultimately bankrupt them, their labels, publications which promoted the bands, etc. It sort of is a big deal. 

So, when I see some 18 year-old emerge out of nowhere, trying to tell me what's up, because they've gained such credentials for writing a couple reviews on Metal Archives or whatever (some forum members here might remember who I have in mind specifically), yes, I'm going to dismiss them without a second thought. If that to you is elitism, well, so be it... I'm not really inclined to give a shit, nor would anyone else who actually had to earn their stripes be. We endured, the fly-by-nighters did not and would not, so we're not gonna put up with a bunch of crap from them. 

As for Floor's comments, whatever. No band is going to do it for everybody. I kinda doubt Tom Araya would have much more to say about After Forever or Nightwish.. as the adage goes, different strokes for different folks. I am a bit worried that she's gonna get trolled by a bunch of jackasses, and I certainly don't condone that. Unfortunately, the Internet makes for an excellent platform for people to show their asses with an expectation that they'll never be held accountable for it, but don't for a second think it's exclusive to Slayer fans - anyone who was on this forum when Tarja got kicked out certainly saw the worst attributes of the 'Tarjaholics' and the 'Tuomasholics' alike emerge, and the forum became a REALLY inhospitable place for a lot of people. 

I think a lot of people are going to say that most of the backlash she would receive would be on account of her being a female in the Metal scene... I don't really think I would disagree. As pointed out before, this quote of hers is being milked.. in retrospect, Phil Anselmo saying he'd like to see Darrel Abbot harmed (which, by the way, did happen, as the latter was murdered in 2004) caused some controversy, but for the most part just kinda seemed to be dismissed, came back up again briefly in 2004, then went away again. 


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The end is nigh

 

AIDStagram


#47
hunebedbouwer

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The closest metal thing Floor owns would probably be her nose ring.

 

 

 

@Ahasverus:

 

'That's how it is' :woot: 

 

@JRA:

 

'So, you are wrong. very wrong'.   :teehee:

 

* No one has a bad taste, just a different one!  

 

 

* Floor is Dutch. She is asked a question. She tells how she feels about it. What's the problem? 


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 ┬┤dance me to your beauty with a burning violin, 

  lift me like an olive branch and be my homeward dove,

  raise a tent of shelter now, though every thread is torn,

  we're both of us beneath our love, we're both of us above, dance me till the end of love┬┤


#48
Himiko

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I think there needs to be a distinction here: I have no problem with her saying Slayer is a boring band. I think so too, from what I've heard of them. But to call them dreadful, no. No matter what you think of their music, Slayer are metal legends, and they've worked very hard for it. They are a good band, it's not like they can't play. And I don't even think that's what Floor meant with dreadful, but I get how people could see it that way. I think Manowar is a hillariously overrated band in terms of their music, but as a musician I think you still need to show those bands the respect they deserve for their accomplishments. I personally don't love Eric Adams' voice, but I'll never question that the man can sing. 

 

 

.... Well, this escalated quickly :P

 

I mean, if another band replied to that same question by saying something like "Well, definitely not Nightwish, they suck/ they're boring/ they seem to have substituted "innovation" for "make the long song even longer next time!"", I think we could all agree that was a bit of a cheap shot ;)

 

So they can say it in private but not in public? I mean fans say it all the time, why can't bands say it? Personally I can totally see how other bands could see Nightwish as, not as a band who sucks but as an overrated band. I mean there are bands who are technically far better than Nightwish as individual players and don't get a fraction of the attention Nightwish gets. Not for singers so much now that they have Floor, but for keyboarders and guitarists I could definitely see that. Not saying that what Emppu and Tuomas play is easy, but just speaking for the keyboard side I don't think it's super hard either. And even composition wise, Nightwish has the orchestra and melodies but their song structures (from the number of individual parts and how they are chained together, and with obvious exceptions) aren't all that impressive. Hits like Wish I had an angel or Nemo have the most boring song structure in the world. 

 

"Dreadful" doesn't need to mean that they are bad musicians, or that they haven't worked hard though - she might acknowledge that they are good musicians but simply really dislike their output. That's fair enough.

 

I think you misunderstand my point - I have no issue with Floor stating her opinion on Slayer - I would have had no problem even if she had said "They're just terrible, I find nothing redeeming about them at all". If she had been asked "What do you think of Slayer?" or "What is your least favourite metal band?" or "Any unpopular opinions about bands?" or anything like that, her answer would have made perfect sense and as I said above, she's under no obligation to like a band just because it's big in the genre. But she was asked "What is the most metal CD you own/ have owned?" or something similar, and she randomly decided to answer this by talking about how she doesn't like Slayer. It was the fact that she basically went out of her way and ignored the question in order to say something negative about another band, and I would have thought that was harsh regardless of the band she was talking about. Hence my point about if someone - let's say Kerry King :P - had answered "What is the most metal CD you own?" by talking about how boring Nightwish was, I think we'd all be in eye rolly agreement that it was unnecessary. If he was asked "What is your opinion on Nightwish?" and answered the same, then fair enough, he was asked for his opinion and gave it. It's the context that bothers me, not the opinion expressed.

 

That said, I hope Floor doesn't come in for internet hate and trolling nonsense just because she doesn't like Slayer - given that she is a woman expressing an opinion on an area that certain internet bottom dwellers want to claim as a "male space", and based on the misogynist nonsense that was Gamergate, I fear that she may.


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#49
JRA

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The closest metal thing Floor owns would probably be her nose ring.

 

 

 

@Ahasverus:

 

'That's how it is' :woot:

 

@JRA:

 

'So, you are wrong. very wrong'.   :teehee:

 

* No one has a bad taste, just a different one!  

 

 

* Floor is Dutch. She is asked a question. She tells how she feels about it. What's the problem? 

Except that wasn't the case.  She was asked a question and gave an unprovoked, uncalled for answer that had nothing to do with the question.  Again, if she had been asked "Who's the most overrated band in metal?" or "What's one metal band with classic status that you never thought was any good?"  then you'd have a point.


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The quickest way to understand my candor:

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=7ksVubN5DhY

 

 


#50
18thAngel

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And some of the elitist, purist attitudes on display are really gross. People like what they like, music crosses genres and evolves and changes. It's not a big deal.

 
You know, I don't really care what Floor has to say on the matter, for various reasons, and I'll get into some of those later. It's comments such as yours which do more to burn my ass than anything she could say. 
See, some of us were around and stuck to our guns as Metal fans at times when you were more or less expected to be a 'cowboy bepop' sort and listen to Garth Brooks and carry on about Country you were even though you lived in the suburbs or else sag your pants below your ass and - in spite again of being white and from the suburbs - talking about how you "da illest gangsta in da hood". Some of us can remember Tipper Gore and the PMRC, and how they poisoned the minds of parents and the general public with the notion that, if your kid listens to Metal, they're going to join a cult and torture small animals, and we had to weather a whole rash of shit we caught for it. Now, it's a scene flooded with trendwhores, bandwagon jumpers, fly-by-nighters, and all other sorts of "just add water" Metal 'fans' who, if the tide suddenly shifted and Metal fans found themselves again under the same sort of scrutiny, would be among the first to jump ship. 
So no, I don't have much regard for those people, and many of your most admired artists in the scene nowadays came up from that, Floor included. And it's not that I don't respect them as artists, but I don't heed their opinions on these matters any more than I do any other fly-by-nighter. She's more than free to think whatever she wants of their music... there's no obligation to like every band out there - even the pioneering bands of their times. But Floor and others need to also realize that, had it not been for the bands who took groups such as the PMRC and even the courts - as is the case with Judas Priest - head on, Metal would never have the level of acceptance it has today, and the stigma behind it - even though it's not entirely nonexistent now - would remain so much more prevalent. Had Judas Priest not won that civil case against them in 89, musicians - not just Metal musicians, but any considered in any way to be controversial - would be wide open to frivolous lawsuits attempting to ultimately bankrupt them, their labels, publications which promoted the bands, etc. It sort of is a big deal. 
So, when I see some 18 year-old emerge out of nowhere, trying to tell me what's up, because they've gained such credentials for writing a couple reviews on Metal Archives or whatever (some forum members here might remember who I have in mind specifically), yes, I'm going to dismiss them without a second thought. If that to you is elitism, well, so be it... I'm not really inclined to give a shit, nor would anyone else who actually had to earn their stripes be. We endured, the fly-by-nighters did not and would not, so we're not gonna put up with a bunch of crap from them. 
As for Floor's comments, whatever. No band is going to do it for everybody. I kinda doubt Tom Araya would have much more to say about After Forever or Nightwish.. as the adage goes, different strokes for different folks. I am a bit worried that she's gonna get trolled by a bunch of jackasses, and I certainly don't condone that. Unfortunately, the Internet makes for an excellent platform for people to show their asses with an expectation that they'll never be held accountable for it, but don't for a second think it's exclusive to Slayer fans - anyone who was on this forum when Tarja got kicked out certainly saw the worst attributes of the 'Tarjaholics' and the 'Tuomasholics' alike emerge, and the forum became a REALLY inhospitable place for a lot of people. 
I think a lot of people are going to say that most of the backlash she would receive would be on account of her being a female in the Metal scene... I don't really think I would disagree. As pointed out before, this quote of hers is being milked.. in retrospect, Phil Anselmo saying he'd like to see Darrel Abbot harmed (which, by the way, did happen, as the latter was murdered in 2004) caused some controversy, but for the most part just kinda seemed to be dismissed, came back up again briefly in 2004, then went away again.

Christ on a bike, I fail to see how what I said relates to this in any way at all. (Also, I'm not 18, not sure if that's what you were implying). I have a problem with people getting slammed for liking music that isn't "pure metal" or that fans of music outside that definition are "posers" or "bad" or whatever. I was referring my only to things said in this thread, not to the culture in general. But, if you don't like that music evolves and think genre lines should be stringently adhered to and kept separate from one another -- well, we're never going to agree on that.
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